Phoenix VS Raven (Marvel VS DC) | DEATH BATTLE! Predictions

(Raven art by sparks220stars)

The Phoenix, Marvel’s fiery avatar of cosmic destruction.

Raven, DC’s demi-demonic daughter of darkness.

They say that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and few people understand that better than these two kind souls, who have spent their lives struggling against the darkness within. But when given the chance to truly spread their wings (both literally and figuratively), they’ve proven themselves to be two of the most powerful super-heroines in comic history. It’s X-Man VS Teen Titan, and only one can survive a DEATH BATTLE!

Phoenix

In case you were wondering…

  • Obviously, the Phoenix Force has had a variety of hosts. Feats and abilities shown by all of them (with the obvious exception of host-specific abilities, such as Emma’s diamond form or Illyana’s sorcery) will be taken into account for this blog, as it will be focusing on 616 Jean Grey, who is the “perfect” host for the Phoenix and thus the most powerful, as well as the one with the broadest control over the Phoenix’s powers.

  • The Dark Phoenix that appeared in the original Dark Phoenix Saga was technically not Jean nor any other Phoenix host, but rather the Phoenix Force itself mimicking Jean’s appearance and personality. The Phoenix manifesting on its own is typically referred to in the comics as “the Phoenix Entity”. Since the Phoenix is explicitly weaker without a host than with one, feats and abilities from the Phoenix Entity can be applied to Jean.

  • In New X-Men (2001) Issues 151 - 154, an alternate future timeline was depicted in which Jean becomes White Phoenix of the Crown, and demonstrates several new feats and abilities. Though this technically isn’t the main timeline, the only difference is the events that occur, and as such feats and abilities from this timeline can be applied to Jean’s own version of the White Phoenix (which appears briefly in Phoenix Endsong Issue 5).

  • In the mid to late 2010s, a version of Jean from the X-Men’s early days was displaced from her time period and spent an extended period operating in the modern day. When relevant, this version will be referred to in this blog as “Teen Jean”. While she did develop applications for her powers that original Jean never had, and received unique training, Teen Jean’s memories were transferred to regular Jean when she was sent back to the past. As such, any feats, abilities, and knowledge that Teen Jean possessed should be available to regular Jean.

  • As the Phoenix, Jean’s psionic powers are greater than or equal to every other telepath and telekinetic on Earth, and as such, telepathy and telekinesis feats from other characters (including but not limited to Professor X, Emma Frost, Psylocke, Rachel Summers, Cable, X-Man, Quentin Quire, and the Stepford Cuckoos) can be scaled to her. Showings taken from other characters will be denoted under “Scaling” in their corresponding abilities section.

Background

  • Full Name: Jean Elaine Grey-Summers

  • AKA: Phoenix, Marvel Girl, Jeannie

  • Height: 5’6” | 1.68 m

  • Weight: 130 lbs | 59 kg

  • Groups: X-Men, X-Factor, Hellfire Club

  • Married to Scott Summers

  • Has been killed and resurrected 15 times

  • Number of Love Interests: Yes

Born and raised in Annandale-on-Hudson, New York, young Jean Grey’s life would be changed forever on one fateful day, when her friend Annie strayed into the path of oncoming traffic. While her friend lay dying in her arms, Jean’s mutant powers manifested, and she telepathically linked her own mind with Annie’s. Seconds later, Jean experienced the death of her friend as though it was happening in her own mind. Naturally quite a bit traumatized by this, Jean became reclusive and nearly catatonic, so much so that her parents sought help from the world’s top expert on matters of the mind: Charles Xavier.

Professor X began to counsel Jean, helping her to overcome her trauma and repressing her telepathic abilities, until a time when she was better suited to handle them - leaving only her less-remarkable telekinetic abilities. Over time, Jean improved and eventually became a functioning member of society once again, at which point Xavier made her an offer: to enroll in his School for Gifted Youngsters, and learn to control her mutant powers among peers. Jean accepted, and soon enough became a founding member of the X-Men alongside fellow mutants Cyclops, Beast, Iceman, and Angel.

As one of Marvel’s premier crime-fighting teams, the X-Men soon became great heroes who fought on behalf of mutants everywhere. Coming into conflict with villains like Magneto, the Juggernaut, and many more, Jean did her part as one of the team’s core members, her telekinesis - and eventually telepathy - developing greatly all the while. She even fell in love with her teammate Scott Summers, AKA Cyclops, though their relationship over the years has been… tumultuous.

However, as is the case with everyone in Marvel’s revolving door of tragedy and status quo, Jean’s happiness would not last forever. On one mission, she and the X-Men found themselves trapped piloting a ship through a solar storm. Caused by a group called the Knights of Hykon, this storm would change Jean’s life forever, as she found herself face to face with a cosmic being of infinite energy. She made a deal with the creature, and her friends were saved; in return, Jean was placed in a healing capsule at the bottom of a river, and the Phoenix emerged to take her place - appearance, personality, and all.

Though the Phoenix was an invaluable asset to the X-Men’s cause, absolute power by nature corrupts absolutely. Even programmed with Jean’s kind heart and outstanding morals, the Phoenix Entity was eventually corrupted by its own power, mutating into Dark Phoenix and becoming one of the greatest threats the world had ever known. It tore through the X-Men with ease, and even annihilated a faraway solar system, killing billions in its quest for sustenance. Over time, however, even the Dark Phoenix began to change. It truly believed that it was Jean Grey, and after some telepathic pacification from Xavier, ultimately gave its own life in order to end its rampage.

Years later, Jean was found in her capsule, and returned to the X-Men, having gained the Phoenix’s memories of its time in her place. With her desire to do good reinvigorated, Jean became a founding member of X-Factor, married Scott, had some children (sort of, it’s complicated, do not ask, I won’t explain), and began to walk the path of a hero once again.

Buuuuuuut, you know how it goes. Eventually, she started to hear a voice in her head, and the psychic constructs she created began to take a familiar, avian shape. The Phoenix was back with a vengeance, and this time would operate from within Jean for real, having manifested as an alternate personality. Then she died. Then she came back. And then she accepted the Phoenix and turned white. And then she left for a decade (she went to the White Hot Room, I’ll explain what that is later). And then she came back again. And then she convinced the Phoenix to leave her, determined to live her life healthily, away from the fiery space parasite.

Around this time, a version of her from the past (Teen Jean) was displaced to the present. She was involved in a variety of incidents, and even had her own encounters with the Phoenix, though luckily never became its host the way Jean did. Eventually, Teen Jean and the other time-displaced X-Men returned to the past, and their memories were merged with their present-day selves, including Jean.

From this point onward, Jean would once again rejoin the X-Men and dedicate her life to protecting the world, currently as a member of the nation of Krakoa. She may have enough relationship drama and a complicated enough family tree to fill a series of novels, and she may have been killed about as much as Optimus Prime, but through it all, Jean has become a symbol throughout the Marvel universe of kindness and perseverance. She stands firmly as the heart and soul of the X-Men, and will continue to pursue a peaceful future for mutants and humankind alike, alongside her surrogate family. Even when the Phoenix inevitably returns one day, or when she inevitably perishes yet again (it is literally a plot point that she is always destined to die), Jean Grey will always have the strength and the will to get up and keep fighting.

Experience

Jean has spent decades as both a member and leader of the X-Men, though she was dead for large portions of her history, and Marvel’s sliding time-scale makes things a bit wonky. At the very least, she has years of experience fighting against basically anybody you can think of, and was trained in the use of her powers by Charles Xavier. She is established to be one of (if not THE) most skilled telepaths on the planet, beyond characters like Emma Frost and rivaling Professor X. She also gained all of Teen Jean’s memories, which includes some minor formal training from Emma and Psylocke. At one point, she also spent 12 years mentally transferred into a future body, in order to raise and train her “son”, Cable.

Though she typically relies more on her psionic abilities than hand-to-hand, one of her notable skills is that she can essentially telepathically “download” anything she wants to know from experts across the planet. She has used this to instantly acquire the skills of Misty Knight and Colleen Wing, two expert martial artists, so she is no slouch in hand-to-hand when the situation calls for it. She is also a fairly good tactician, having spent years fighting, leading, and teaching. 

Phoenix Force

Overview

  • AKA Void Falcon, Phal’kon, World Destroyer

  • Other Notable Hosts:

    • Rachel Summers, Scott Summers, Hope Summers, Emma Frost, Quentin Quire, Stepford Cuckoos, Piotr Rasputin, Illyana Rasputin, Namor McKenzie, Firehair, Cosmic Ghost Rider, Thane, Marc Spector, Maya Lopez, technically most of the Avengers

  • Born from the Big Bang

  • Possibly Thor’s mother

    • Definitely did the naughty with Odin

  • Once empowered Howard the Duck

Born at the dawn of creation from the fires of the Big Bang itself, the Phoenix Force is a godlike entity of cosmic proportions, typically taking the form of either a human, or a giant falcon made out of fire. It is life itself, and its singular purpose is to destroy, burning down planets and civilizations to make way for new things. The Phoenix is parasitic, however, and so to do this, it seeks out a host through whom it can act, corrupting them to its whims. Though it has taken many hosts over the years, it always seems to eventually return to Jean Grey, whom it believes to be the perfect host. Together with Jean, the Phoenix is an unstoppable force, consuming entire solar systems and more in its quest for sustenance. Over time, however, Jean was able to convince the Phoenix that their… er, relationship was unhealthy, and that they needed to part ways. Now on the search for a new host to facilitate its cosmic destruction, it is believed that the Phoenix’s fire will one day consume the last remnants of the cosmos, bringing an end to all that is.

Higher Forms

Dark Phoenix

The Dark Phoenix is a form assumed when the mind of a host gives way to the Phoenix’s corruption, going insane and becoming obsessed with destruction and consumption. As the Dark Phoenix, Jean’s powers are tempered by neither joy nor love, and as such they are much more powerful than her normal Phoenix state.

White Phoenix of the Crown

Though it has few appearances in the comics, the White Phoenix of the Crown is the Phoenix’s ultimate state of being. Jean originally achieved it by connecting with the minds of all her loved ones, allowing her to receive their emotions and use them to stabilize herself. In this state, she regains her sanity and becomes much more powerful, to the point of holding entire universes in her hands, and being able to make minor alterations to the past to change the course of reality.

White Hot Room

The White Hot Room is a plane of existence that the Phoenix has access to and control over. This plane of reality is “dimensionally transcendental”, and simultaneously exists within the Phoenix, within the M’kraan Crystal, and beyond the Far Shore (one of the furthest edges of Marvel’s creation). The Room has been described as the Phoenix’s heart and mindscape, and whilst in the Room, the Phoenix has extensive control, able to manipulate its surroundings as it pleases. This control can be disrupted, as has been done by Teen Jean and the Adversary, but it has always returned to the Phoenix eventually. In the event that the Phoenix dies, the White Hot Room will be unaffected, and eventually the Phoenix will be reborn from the Room.

Arsenal

Uniform

Standard X-Men costumes are made of unstable molecules, allowing them to withstand extreme temperatures and serve as an insulator. Jean’s costumes are unique to her, but they should at least have all the features of a standard one.

Image Inducer

Has an image inducer with which she can alter her physical appearance.

Magneto Helmet

Has a Magneto-esque helmet which can be used to block out mental attacks.

Powers

Phoenix Avatar

The Phoenix possesses the ability to manifest a bird-shaped avatar out of fire, and use it to fight. This avatar can grow to inconceivable sizes, and attacks via fire and physical strikes. Jean can also produce limbs of the Phoenix Avatar to attack with just those.

Pyrokinesis

Naturally, the Phoenix also possesses immensely powerful fire manipulation, attacking with flames hotter than a supernova and as radiant as a neutron star. She can also make constructs out of fire, and incinerate people from the inside out.

Telepathy

Though Jean possesses telepathy as one of her standard mutant abilities, it becomes massively enhanced with the Phoenix inside of her. Her mental abilities at their peak are considered to be nearly without limit, and grants her a broad variety of applications in combat, which will be listed below. Compared to other characters in Marvel, base Jean is typically considered to be the second best telepath after Professor X, while Phoenix Jean surpasses him and as such is the strongest. In any case, she far surpasses other telepaths like Emma, Psylocke, etc.

Scaling

Telepathic Communication

Jean can communicate telepathically with others, which she most commonly uses to maintain a mental rapport between all the X-Men in combat. As the Phoenix, her range is at minimum great enough to encompass the entire planet’s population, scaling off of other Phoenix hosts.

Scaling

Mind Reading

Reading minds and memories is also an ability that Jean possesses, allowing her to gain insight into an opponent’s tactics and abilities. It is worth noting, though, that she consistently tends to have difficulty handling “larger” or “eviler” minds, and her mind reading can be ineffective on certain types of opponents.

Scaling

Mental Manipulation

Jean can also use her telepathy in a more offensive manner, outright affecting, dominating, and even shutting down an opponent’s mind. She has various methods of doing so, some of which are fairly brutal and difficult to defend against.

Scaling

Memory Manipulation

Jean can manipulate and erase memories. She can do this to both short-term and long-term memory, and to either an individual or to large crowds. The Phoenix is also noted to be able to give people new memories.

Scaling

Illusions

She can create illusions, fooling people’s senses and making them believe that they see or hear something that they do not.

Astral Projection

Jean has occasionally shown the ability to project a mental construct of herself out of her body, allowing her to transfer her mind to different places or enter the astral plane. She can also forcibly do this to others, though any injuries inflicted upon an astral projection are reflected onto the body, so it’s important that she chooses her battles wisely.

Extrasensory Perception

Jean possesses sensory abilities which allow her to detect things that cannot be seen. This is fairly useful in combat, when avoiding things that would otherwise surprise her.

Sleep Manipulation

Jean can telepathically force people to sleep or wake them up. This has even worked on the Incredible Hulk and Legion, both of whom possess mental defenses.

Pain Manipulation

Jean is capable of telepathically inducing or negating a person’s pain, typically via messing with their nerve endings or pain receptors. She rarely uses this ability offensively, likely because it is fairly cruel, but she can do so.

Sensory Manipulation

Jean has the ability to alter the senses of herself and others, on the occasion where it is tactically useful. She can also tap into the senses of other people and use those in place of her own.

Telepathic Amps

Jean is capable of using her telepathy to greatly amp the powers of other people, and even herself on rare occasions.

Miscellaneous

Jean has shown several other miscellaneous applications of telepathy.

Telekinesis

The second primary ability that Jean possesses naturally without the Phoenix, she can mentally manipulate objects and people around her with telekinesis. Normally, she is only an Alpha-level telekinetic, meaning that while she is powerful, her abilities can be surpassed in some measurable fashion, unlike her Omega-level telepathy, which cannot. However, as the Phoenix her telekinesis becomes much more powerful and versatile, to the point where she likely can be considered an Omega-level telekinetic.

Scaling

Barriers

Jean can use her telekinesis to create energy barriers, protecting herself and those around her from oncoming attacks. These can be small or omnidirectional, and Jean can create them both around herself and from a distance. They are not passively maintained, however, so she must always dedicate some degree of concentration toward keeping them in place.

Matter Manipulation

As the Phoenix, Jean’s telepathy becomes enhanced to the point of manipulating matter on an atomic level. This can be used offensively to affect her opponents, or for more mundane tasks such as changing outfits.

Transmutation

Likely an extension of her matter manipulation, Jean can turn solid mass into something completely different. This has shown to affect living beings as well, so she can use it offensively in combat.

Scaling

Energy Constructs / Weapons

From Psylocke, Teen Jean learned how to create weapons out of psychic energy for use in combat. The extent of what she can create is likely limited only by her imagination.

Biological Manipulation

Jean can use her telekinesis in order to alter not only her own body, but the bodies of others as well, disrupting their cell structures or altering their biological functions in a variety of helpful or harmful ways, depending on what the situation calls for.

Scaling

Immortality

As the Phoenix, Jean becomes much harder to kill, to the point where she could be considered immortal. The Phoenix itself is impossible to permanently destroy, and so long as it is not incapacitated, it can use its powers to keep Jean alive.

Regeneration

The primary means by which the Phoenix can protect the survival of its host; it grants Jean powerful regenerative abilities, and can mostly let her come back from nearly any level of physical destruction so long as the Phoenix itself is not compromised.

Resurrection

Though it typically takes a relatively long time, if the Phoenix is destroyed beyond its ability to regenerate, it will eventually be reborn from the White Hot Room in the form of an egg.

Flight

Jean possesses high-speed flight. Originally, she needed to use telekinesis in order to levitate herself, but as the Phoenix, she can fly unaided.

Energy Manipulation & Absorption

As the Phoenix, Jean possesses nearly limitless energy manipulation and absorption capabilities. This can be used for energy attacks, or to siphon power from other sources. Notably, the Phoenix is made of nearly-infinite energy, and requires energy to survive (hence its constant quest to consume things like stars, in order to replenish itself).

Possession

As evidenced by its need for a host, the Phoenix is capable of possessing and empowering just about anybody that it wants to. While it prefers Jean and as such will not leave her for anyone else, it has shown to be capable of using its possession offensively, leaping into a new host and attempting to burn them from the inside out.

Life Manipulation

Though the Phoenix is an entity of destruction, it is also one of creation and life, and as such has control over the life force of living things. It can drain the life force of others and even bring back the dead.

Cosmic Awareness / Senses

Though this is only occasionally mentioned and never elaborated on entirely, it is indicated that the Phoenix possesses an extensive (possibly total) awareness of the cosmos

Portal Creation / BFR

The Phoenix is capable of creating holes through space-time, allowing it to traverse large distances instantly, and escape from spatial imprisonment. It also has a form of BFR in which it can transfer people to the White Hot Room, though this is difficult to do with a living target.

Time Stop

The Phoenix Force has demonstrated the ability to stop time, though has never done so in combat.

Soul Manipulation (Maybe)

Just about every mention of this is fairly vague or minimal, but for the sake of argument and completeness it’s best to acknowledge everything. There are a few statements throughout the Phoenix’s history suggesting that it may have the ability to affect souls. That said, most of them are worded in a way that could very easily be interpreted as figurative or metaphorical, and it has never shown any particularly extensive control over souls outside of these statements. Take these instances however you will.

Scaling

  • Psylocke using her telepathy to imprison the Shadow King’s soul

    • Note: While Jean is established to be a more skilled telepath than Psylocke, she does not necessarily know all of the same applications of her powers that she does. For instance, creating psionic weapons is something that Psylocke taught her how to do. As such, it is debatable whether Jean would be able to replicate this ability.

Miscellaneous

Random miscellaneous abilities that Jean has shown.

Hax Resistances & Vulnerabilities

NOTE: If a hax ability is not listed here, that simply means that neither Jean nor the Phoenix has ever encountered it.

Mind Manipulation

Soul Manipulation / Possession

Transmutation

Power Nullification / Removal

Energy Absorption

Existence Erasure

BFR

Life Force Draining

Sealing

Phasing

Feats

Overall

  • Omega-level mutant

  • Founding member of the X-Men and X-Factor

  • The world’s most powerful telepath at her peak

  • Saved the universe from the M’kraan Crystal

  • The Phoenix is considered to be a counterpart and equal to Scarlet Witch’s Chaos Magic

  • Jean has defeated Professor X, Emma Frost, Justice, Galactus, Terrax, Firelord

  • In an alternate timeline, defeated Sublime as White Phoenix of the Crown and subsequently fixed reality

  • Teen Jean defeated Xorn, The Blob, Ronan the Accuser

  • Rachel with the Phoenix defeated Necrom

  • Maya with the Phoenix defeated the Adversary

Strength

Base

The Phoenix

Dark Phoenix

White Phoenix of the Crown

Phoenix Force

Speed

Base

The Phoenix

Dark Phoenix

White Phoenix of the Crown

  • None notable

Phoenix Force

Durability

Base

The Phoenix

Dark Phoenix

White Phoenix of the Crown

  • None notable

Phoenix Force

Scaling

Weaknesses

  • The Phoenix Force is reliant on energy to live, and will die if it runs out without being able to consume more (though at full power its energy is nearly infinite)

  • Sufficient damage to the Phoenix host has a tendency to expel the Phoenix Force from their body

  • Sufficient damage to the Phoenix Force itself will require it to resurrect via the White Hot Room, which takes time

  • Though the White Phoenix largely mitigates this, the Phoenix is largely difficult to control and will affect Jean’s mind to varying extents in her different forms

  • Control over the White Hot Room can be taken from the Phoenix, though only temporarily and always somewhat circumstantially

  • Complete annihilation of the host’s mind and soul is something that the Phoenix has never shown to be capable of repairing

Raven

In case you were wondering…

  • As a DC character, Raven has of course been subjected to multiple Crisis events and reboots. Raven’s history, and the New Teen Titans as a whole, continued basically uninterrupted from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis, and there have been numerous references to the pre-Crisis events of the run since, solidifying that era as canon. Likewise, while Raven was rebooted in the Flashpoint event for the New 52, the Rebirth event has since largely merged pre-Flashpoint and post-Flashpoint histories. Multiple storylines since Rebirth have acknowledged multiple eras of the Teen Titans as having happened, from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis to post-Flashpoint. While there’s obviously some contradictions in the timeline, the idea seems to be that, for someone like Raven, her entire mainline comic history is canon. I’ll also be including feats from some dubiously canon/out-of-continuity stories, such as Titans: Burning Rage, as Raven is basically the exact same character as her main self in them. The comic Titans United specifically is described as “canon adjacent”, taking place in its own sort of reality close to the comics, and is not designed to break anything from the main canon


  • Raven’s parents, Arella and Trigon, have some notable feats and abilities of their own. As Arella’s powers are derived from most of the same training as Raven, and she has admitted her powers have never been as strong as her daughter’s, feats from her can be included as something Raven could at least hypothetically perform. Something similar applies for Phantasm, a being composed of the souls of Azarath’s denizens, Danny Chase, and Arella merged together, who seems to have the knowledge of its component parts and whose powers have been directly compared to Raven’s in function. Likewise, Raven seems to gain many of Trigon’s abilities as she embraces her darker self, and she’s defeated her father multiple times at the peaks of her power. While it’s admittedly less clear, I’ll therefore include some of Trigon’s feats as stuff Raven could arguably replicate. The same goes for Raven’s many brothers and sisters, such as Belial and the 7 Deadly Sins, who I’ll also be mentioning feats from for the sake of comprehensiveness

Background

  • Real Name: Raven

  • AKA: Rachel Roth, Pride, Rae

  • Height: 5’11’’ | 1.80 m

  • Weight: 139 lbs | 63 kg

  • Groups: Teen Titans, Titans, Seven Deadly Sins, Justice League (kinda)

  • Has an on-and-off relationship with Beast Boy

  • Technically the aunt of Etrigan and Merlin

  • Regularly watches Gossip Girl, Conan, and depressing foreign films

Born in the corrupt streets of Gotham City, Angela Roth had a troubled home life to say the least. Her father hated her rebellious lifestyle, physically abusing her for supposedly making a mockery of their family’s religion. Feeling utterly backed into a corner, Angela ran away from her home when she was 17, with nothing but rags to her name. Desperate and thirsty, she stumbled into a church for shelter, quickly discovering that it was no ordinary house of prayer. In reality, the church followed Satanism, attempting to summon the devil itself to the world. 


The devil’s followers exploited Angela’s vulnerability and desire for belonging, and soon indoctrinated her into their cult, eventually choosing her as the summoner for the devil. Laying on a ritualistic circle, the skies went dark above her, and before her was the image of an impossibly beautiful man, enthralling her. It was only after they made love that the man revealed his true form - that of a hideous, savage demon, like pure evil manifested. This was the demon lord Trigon, and Angela was now bearing his child.


Betrayed by the experience, Angela fell into the pits of despair, stumbling through the streets with no hope in life. That was until, at her lowest point, a mystic portal opened up in front of her, with a hand beckoning her through. This was the alternate dimension of Azarath, and its denizens would give Angela a new lease on life. Taking the name Arella, she trained in their magical ways, eventually bearing her demonic child in the realm. This daughter, who she named Raven, was feared by the people of Azarath, serving as a direct gateway for Trigon to enter their realm and destroy all. As a result, Raven was trained in their empathic ways, taught to restrain any emotions, any feelings of love or hate, to prevent any risk of succumbing to her demonic self.


Raven spent her life secluded in Azarath, in a constant mental struggle against her father’s influence. As an adult, Raven sensed Trigon’s influence increasing, and realized that her father would imminently launch an attack on Earth. With no other options and the pacifistic people of Azarath refusing to take action, Raven traveled to Earth and went about assembling a team of heroes to stop the upcoming demonic invasion. These heroes would come together to form the new Teen Titans, and successfully helped to seal away Trigon in the nether-verse before he could destroy the planet.


Even still, Raven was tormented by the influence of her father, at war with her own emotions and her inability to express them without risk, and only intensified by her growing relationships with the Titans, who acted a sort-of family for her. It was only inevitable, then, that Trigon would eventually return, and take over his daughter completely. Trigon decimated both Azarath and Earth, imprisoning and torturing every hero present. The corrupted Raven was made to attack her own friends, forcing them to kill her. All hope seemed to be lost, until Raven’s body was used to channel the souls of Azarath, and the power of their goddess Azar herself. The glowing, radiant Raven obliterated the demon lord in a flash of light, before simply disappearing, her own team unaware of her fate.


Nearly a year passed before the Titans discovered that Raven was still alive, now brainwashed and empowered by the Church of Blood. Her surrogate family managed to free her, and she soon rejoined the team, free of the influence of Trigon and finally being able to express all the emotions she long-held dormant. At least, at first. Turns out the souls of Azarath still existed, and had been corrupted by the lingering soul of Trigon. Taking refuge in fellow Titan Jericho, they soon wormed their way into Raven’s soul and yet again corrupted her completely. Now a full-fledged supervillainess, this Dark Raven aimed to resurrect her many fallen demonic brothers and sisters into new bodys, which, unbeknownst to her, would resurrect Trigon himself. It was only after her friends completely obliterated the evil from her soul, and the spirit of Trigon within her, that she was finally purified. Now appearing as a golden soul, without a body, she could truly start anew.


Much time would pass, and the lingering soul of Raven was ultimately resurrected in a new, younger body by the Church of Blood, who actually worshiped Trigon. She was rescued by the newly formed next generation of Teen Titans, and joined the team yet again. Now in a 15-year old body, she ended up attending high school, taking the name Rachel Roth, and began a (very drama-heavy) romance with her teammate Beast Boy. She seeked to live a simple, normal experience with simple, normal people. Even with some interruptions from her brothers, the literal Seven Deadly Sins trying to corrupt her yet again, she always managed to prevail with the help of her friends, and could live a life that was truly her own.


But this is DC, so come the New 52 and that was all thrown out the window! Still, the new, rebooted Raven followed a similar background to her original self. Kidnapped by Trigon, she was forced to serve as a general in his demonic army, conquering worlds in his steed. That path took her to Earth, where she joined the Teen Titans, a group of heroic teenagers fighting back against Trigon’s invasion. While initially conflicted over her loyalties and true intentions, Raven would find herself accepted by the Titans as an equal, and a friend. With the influence of Trigon no longer puppeteering her, she moved in with the family of her mother’s sister, Alice, and once more attended high school in the pursuit of normality.


Now with her own friend-circle at school, a new relationship with Beast Boy, and a family that accepts her for who she is (alongside the merging of her old and new selves), Raven’s lot in life is looking up. Having banished Trigon yet again, she currently works as a teacher in the newly formed Titans Academy, guiding students who suffer from as much conflict in life as she did. She may struggle with her emotions, and she may come from pure darkness, but with the help of her friends and family, Raven will always end up fighting for what’s right.

Experience

While DC’s timeline is all sorts of messed up, Raven has been a member of the Teen Titans for at least over three years total, and nearly 40 years in terms of real-life chronology. Raven spent the first 18 years of her life training her empathic powers under the priests of Azarath and the goddess Azar herself, specifically being noted as a ravenous student who desired to learn everything she could. She has experience fighting against a wide variety of power-sets, on top of the regular training sessions the Titans undergo. What’s more, in the New 52, Raven spent “an eternity” conquering worlds for Trigon and training under him (even as she was only gone for years on Earth, time passes differently in Trigon’s realm). In recent comics, she has led the Titans alongside Nightwing, and she’s even served as a teacher for others with similar powers to her.


She may not have any explicit formal hand-to-hand training, but she clearly isn’t unfamiliar with such scenarios, having defeated multiple cultists and even her demonic brother Envy in physical confrontations, likely due to the Titans’ training sessions. She also regularly works out, and has some experience in manipulating and tricking others for her own ends.

Arsenal

Uniform

Raven has worn several uniforms over her history. Her original cloak is a standard robe worn by the denizens of Azarath, vulnerable to being set on fire. After being brainwashed by Brother Blood, she took on a white version of her robes, which became her standard outfit for the rest of the run. Her New 52 outfit notably has a retractable mask and a feathered cloak, which Raven can shift at her will into various shapes in order to restrain or attack her opponents. She can consistently shift into her various uniforms with her powers at will.

Communicator

A communicator for the Titans, that allows for quick long-distance calls between members. The out-of-continuity story New Teen Titans: Games depicts the communicator as residing in the Raven emblem on her cloak, while the dubiously canon Titans: Titans Together portrays it as an earbud.

Chakra

Best recognised as the red jewel located on Raven’s forehead. Pre-Flashpoint, it serves to help control her powers and strengthen them, such as allowing her to break free from mind control. Without it, her powers are notably diminished. Post-Flashpoint, when given a big enough power surge, it’s used as a sort of portal to bring Trigon to Earth.

Legion Flight Ring

Pretty much everyone in DC has had one of these at some point. Allows Raven to fly through the vacuum of space.

Lenses

A tacky pair of lenses Raven wore to block Jericho’s possession, which is based on eye-contact.

Ramat Stone

A mystical gem which allows the user to find beings imbued with sorcery, with Raven’s being tied to herself. She gave one to Donna Troy as a contingency for if she ever became corrupted. Perhaps more notably though, Raven can place a sliver of her own “pure essence” into the stone, which can become sentient if she ever turns evil, and can then emerge from the stone and fight back. She used this ability to defeat her dark self.

Magical Items

A set of various magical implants and talismans owned by Raven, which act as surefire ways to kill her. She gave them to her friends as a contingency for if she ever became evil again.

Ebon-Sword

A sword used by Raven as she served under Trigon. She doesn’t do much with it on-screen.

Rings of Azar

A pair of mystical rings given to Raven by the goddess Azar before she died. They act as a “nexus” to Raven’s soul, and through them Raven can feel Azar herself guiding her. Their true purpose, however, is to destroy Trigon himself. Upon death, Azar placed her own soul into the rings, waiting for the day Trigon would return. When he corrupted Raven, he emptied her body of its soul, which proceeded to flow into the rings alongside the souls of all of Azarath’s people, who Trigon seemingly killed. When placed upon Raven’s physically deceased body, the rings make Raven a conduit for all the souls stored inside, massively empowering her, and allowing her to obliterate Trigon, body and soul. After this, Raven disappeared in a flash of light, and the rings dropped to the ground.

Powers

Key

  • [Dark Raven] - Feats performed by Raven while she’s corrupted by Trigon’s power or something similar. During the 90s, after Raven's body was destroyed, her Soul-Self was corrupted by Trigon directly and began acting on its own. During this period, she took on Dark Raven as her supervillain moniker.

  • [Golden Raven] - Feats performed by Raven’s purified soul after Dark Raven was destroyed, acting on its own. It’s unclear if she’s any stronger in this state, but I’m marking the distinction to be sure

  • [Trigon] - Feats performed by Raven’s father

  • [Trigon + Souls of Azarath] - Feats performed during the period in the 80s where Trigon’s essence merged with the souls of Azarath’s denizens

  • [Arella] - Feats performed by Raven’s mother

  • [Phantasm] - Feats performed by the second Phantasm, comprising the souls of 1000 of Azarath’s citizens, Arella, and Danny Chase

  • [Siblings] - Feats performed by one of Raven’s many, many siblings, that can reasonably be applied to her

If you’re wondering about ‘White Raven’ and why it’s not mentioned, that ‘form’ is sort of a misconception stemming from the 2003 Teen Titans cartoon and word of mouth. In reality, Raven’s white robes are purely ceremonial, and don’t indicate any shift in power. She first donned them after being brainwashed by Brother Blood during New Teen Titans Volume 2, and kept wearing them for the rest of the run until her apparent death in issue 84. While her wearing them did coincide with an amp from Brother Blood, this amp was unrelated, and just enhanced her physicality and empathic powers. It wasn’t some cataclysmic shift in strength, and it’s entirely unrelated to Trigon. Later on, Raven wears the white robes after again being brainwashed by Brother Blood, but she immediately switches back to her normal robes after being freed from his control. In either case, the white robes don’t represent any actual power boost for Raven, are tied to Brother Blood and not Trigon, and aren’t an actual form she can access. Raven does appear white and glowing upon absorbing the souls of Azarath, but this is completely unrelated to the white robes mentioned above, and isn’t a ‘form’ in the traditional sense.


Trigon Heritage

As the daughter of the demon lord Trigon, Raven is constantly fighting an internal battle against the corruption of her father, to the point where at first she couldn’t express any form of emotion without risk of Trigon overtaking her. When she succumbs to it, she becomes much more violent and aggressive, and gains new powers. The following is a sort of timeline of her instances of falling to corruption and her encounters with Trigon.

Azarath

Azarath is the mystical interdimensional realm Raven was born and raised in. Led by the living goddess Azar, its denizens are the descendants of those who left Earth and embraced a life of pacifism. Both Raven and Arella were taught by the Priests of Azarath, and learned of their empathic ways. It’s suggested that the mystic energies of Azarath naturally empower empaths, having strengthened both Raven and Phantasm. While Azarath has been destroyed a few times, and in the New 52 was taken over by Trigon, it has last been depicted as being populated and inhabited by its priests as normal. Raven can call upon these Priests and their power if she’s struggling to cleanse someone of evil.

Nexus of All Dimensions

The mysterious Nexus of All Dimensions is Raven’s domain, and where she is at her most powerful. Its nature is very poorly explained, and it hasn’t shown up in the comics for decades, but it’s stated to be linked to the emotions of all who live. Raven can use it to sort through the emotions of all, and locate specific people by calling upon Azar. The Nexus is linked to other dimensions, as the name would imply, and contains a “universe of lost souls”, which Raven has manipulated to return back to Earth. She can teleport herself and others to it at will.

Enhanced Physicality

After being empowered by Brother Blood, Raven boasts superhuman strength that rivals even Donna Troy. It’s suggested that she retained this amp permanently.

Empath Powers

Raven was born an empath, capable of sensing and controlling the emotions of others. Under the training of the goddess Azar and the Priests of Azarath, Raven gained a mastery of emotions, capable of absorbing and manipulating them at her will for a variety of effects.

Sensing

Raven most commonly applies her empathic abilities in the form of sensing. Raven passively detects and picks up on the emotions of others, allowing her to tell where someone is or what they are feeling. The more intense the emotion, the more intensity she feels, and strong negative emotions can overwhelm her and cause her to collapse. She’s detected emotions and feelings from across interstellar distances, and even from different dimensions. This allows her to detect beings who are invisible or who aren’t physically there, or the true intent of anyone she sees.

Feelings
Presences
Other

Emotion Manipulation

Raven is a master of manipulating the emotions of others, absorbing them or changing how they feel. This can be used to drain someone of their feelings, or, more potently, for outright brainwashing. While Raven has always had this power to some extent, she became capable of altering emotions freely after receiving a permanent power boost from Brother Blood. Of note is that Raven has said that the emotions of the young are nearer to the surface, making them easier to tap into, and she’s claimed she doesn't require a person to be solid to use her powers, they just have to have thoughts to be reached and a soul for her to enter.

Mind Manipulation
Sleep Manipulation
Other

Telepathy

As an empath, Raven can telepathically affect others, ranging from simple long-range communication to outright reading minds. She can also wipe and replace memories, up to replacing an entire city’s worth of people’s memories of an event.

Communication
Mind Reading
Memory Altering
Other

Healing

One of Raven’s primary functions on her team is to act as a healer. Raven’s healing works by taking the pain of others into herself and letting it pass out of her body, expelling the pain completely. While she cannot heal those that are already dying, she’s capable of healing ailments like broken ribs or boiling blood. This requires feeling their pain herself, which has knocked Raven out in the past, but she’s also successfully managed to expel the pain of hundreds of people at once without collapsing. She can also cure ailments such as diseases or poisons, taking them into herself, and her healing has been described as her soul entering the body of the one she’s curing


While in her earlier years it was stated she couldn’t, later on Raven is shown to be capable of healing her own injuries, likely due to her empowerment by Brother Blood. It’s likely her ability to heal herself has a similar potency to her healing of others, as they function on the same principle of expelling pain.

While not healing in a traditional sense, Raven’s family have shown potent regenerative abilities.

Energy Absorption

Raven can drain others of their energy and empower herself with it. This is typically explained as being the opposite of her ability to heal, taking the strength of others instead of lending others her own. As such, Raven doesn’t like doing it to her teammates, as it will weaken them.

Soul Manipulation

Raven can manipulate souls, interfacing with them or controlling their shape. With her own Soul-Self, she can pierce souls directly, even while they’re still inside someone’s body.

When Raven’s body was destroyed and she became Dark Raven, she sought vessels strong enough to withstand the souls of the hundred slain children of Trigon, in order for them to be reborn. She implants these ‘Trigon seeds’ with a kiss, allowing the souls to grow within. These seeds seem to only sprout in metahumans, as those without powers wither into desiccated husks when Raven kisses them and implants a seed. Through this, all 100 of her siblings can be implanted and reborn in their new bodies. Even after she seemingly dies, Raven’s minions still have the Trigon seeds in them, and they must be removed by doctors, showing the extent of Raven’s control over their souls. There’s some slight implication that Starfire and Supergirl have the power to resist Raven’s control due to being aliens, however that works.

Soul Absorption

Raven can absorb and channel souls in their entirety. She has twice defeated Trigon by absorbing the souls of many others, and using them to greatly empower herself.

Miscellaneous

The following are any empathic abilities Raven has that don’t fit into the aforementioned categories.

Limitations

The following are any instances of her empathic powers failing to work or showing a limit.

Sensing
Telepathy
Emotion Manipulation
Healing

Soul-Self

Raven’s signature ability, where she separates her soul from her body. Her Soul-Self typically manifests as the silhouette of a raven, but it’s also taken the shape of a fully limbed bird, or even the shape of Raven herself. Raven can see, hear, and speak through her Soul-Self, allowing her to communicate at long distance or survey areas. Her Soul-Self also contains an entirely separate dimension inside of it, and possesses all of Raven’s empathic abilities, allowing Raven to absorb her foes to manipulate their mind from within, or alternatively for simple storage as Raven travels. Raven can operate her Soul-Self from over a thousand miles away, and possibly even interstellar distances.


Her Soul-Self is indicated a few times to embody Raven’s dark side, everything about her that comes from Trigon, with Raven’s body being what contains that evil and keeps it at bay. At one point, when Raven’s body was destroyed, her Soul-Self’s evil could no longer be contained, and began acting on its own as the supervillain Dark Raven, possessing a woman and using her body before it could dissipate. At the end of this arc, Raven’s soul is purified and becomes golden, with Raven now able to freely act and use her powers as just her soul. Later on, her Soul-Self is shown to contain both a demonic half and a good half.

Mechanics

Absorption

Raven’s soul is a dimensional portal, which leads to an alternate dimension and the domain of Raven, a safe space where she claims she can’t be hurt. The Soul-Self’s inside is drawn like an entirely separate universe, and Raven can fully exert her empathic powers inside it. She commonly uses it for storage, containing people or objects inside it as she travels.

Mind Manipulation

Raven commonly uses her Soul-Self to alter the emotions of others, whether through showing them their greatest fears or outright manipulating their mind. Note that, as these abilities are a subset of Raven’s standard empath powers, she should be able to replicate any of the following feats of mind manipulation without using her Soul-Self.

Dimensional Travel

The Soul-Self is connected to other dimensions, and Raven can use it to teleport others upon contact, sending them to a different point on Earth or to other universes. She can use this to support her teammates, or to banish her foes completely, removing them from the battlefield.

Restraining

Raven’s Soul-Self is usually depicted as being corporeal, and can be used to physically restrain things. As Dark Raven, she frequently shapeshifts her Soul-Self into shackles around others.

Concussive Force

The Soul-Self has shown to be able to apply force as it travels in order to attack or repel enemies.

Possession

Due to being a literal soul, Raven has at one point used her Soul-Self to project her consciousness into others and speak through them. After her body was destroyed, her dark Soul-Self outright destroyed the soul of a random woman and replaced it with its own, taking her body for itself. Likewise, other Azarathean spirits alongside her father have routinely possessed others, even believing themselves capable of possessing Superman. These souls are very powerful, and a host that’s too weak will outright die if they contain the souls inside for too long. It’s been stated that both Raven’s corrupted Soul-Self and the spirits of Azarath risk dissipating entirely if they don’t find a host quickly, but this is no longer an issue for Raven later in her history, as Raven’s purified and golden Soul-Self has lasted for years, and both her dark and good souls were completely fine while separated from her body for weeks in an entirely separate plane of reality.

Resilience

Raven’s Soul-Self is quite tanky, and is capable of enduring many strong attacks. Even when it’s been completely shattered, Raven can quickly repair it and keep going.

Miscellaneous

Limitations

Raven’s Soul-Self is the core of many of her powers, and without it in her body, she becomes unable to utilize some of her key abilities. The exact specifics of it are a little inconsistent, such as one comic suggesting she can’t fly without it while a later comic says she still can, but it’s clear it weakens her. The most detailed explanation given is that without her Soul-Self, she still has access to some of her residual magic and baser abilities, such as flight and energy projection, but the potency and range of her abilities is diminished. It’s also quite literally her emotional core, and without it she is unable to feel any form of empathy.


Initially, she could only safely keep her soul separate for up to 5 minutes, as anything longer would thrust her soul into a nightmarish alternate dimension which would try to rip her soul apart and prevent it from returning, but this weakness was dropped later in her history. A later comic claims that, while Raven can split her physical body and soul into two, if Raven remains separated from her soul for too long, her body will implode and take out everything in many miles, but Raven later goes several weeks without her Soul-Self with no notable side effects, indicating she lost this weakness as well. In general, this doesn’t come up in modern comics.


Many have also broken out of or otherwise restrained her Soul-Self in some way. The following lists notable instances of her Soul-Self failing, alongside any other weaknesses it may have. 

Flight

Raven is named after a bird, so it would be kinda embarrassing if she couldn’t fly. At first, Raven could only fly by taking the form of her bodiless soul. After her soul was bound to a new, younger body, Raven can just fly naturally, though this change is never explicitly addressed. She’s described flight as a form of magic, and one of her baser abilities that she can use even without her Soul-Self.

Magic

At her core, Raven is one of DC’s many magic characters, and has numerous spells at her disposal. She draws from the same overall source of magic as other DC characters like Zatanna, and has used her belief to empower the magic of Wonder Woman.

Energy Projection

Her primary offensive option. Raven can fire large blasts of energy as beams, or can project shockwaves out of her body to blow people away, usually when she’s under high emotional stress. Without her Soul-Self, Raven’s energy projection is greatly weakened.

As a subset of her energy projection, Raven can produce fancy-looking lightning-shaped blasts. She most commonly uses these when she’s been corrupted into Dark Raven. 

Forcefields

Raven can create shields to protect herself and others. These can encompass just a small space in front of her, or can grow large enough to cover entire buildings. She can also protect others from psionic attacks with her shields, such as mind control.

Summoning

Through her magic and other-dimensional connections, Raven can summon creatures to aid in her combat, even her own friends.

Scrying 

With her magic, Raven can observe others from long distances, even entirely different dimensions.

Miscellaneous

Teleportation

Raven can teleport herself and others across long distances. More precisely, she describes it not as teleporting, but in-reality shifting between dimensions, temporarily moving to a different dimension and returning to Earth in a new position. As such, Raven can travel not only between points on Earth in an instant, but to other dimensions entirely. While in her earlier years, Raven claimed she couldn’t teleport across countries, since then Raven has teleported across the entire planet without difficulty. She frequently applies this in combat, teleporting enemies across the globe with just a touch to instantly remove them from the fight. Her teleportation is sometimes suggested to be tied to her Soul-Self in some way.


Raven’s teleporting is typically shown producing “ebon smoke”, which she can use to hide. The smoke is clearly visible, and isn’t just an art thing.


There’s a lot of instances of Raven teleporting to a place that visually looks like the Nexus of All Dimensions, but in any cases where it’s unclear, I’ve simply marked it as Azarath instead, since the Nexus as a location is very nebulous and rarely referenced.

Portals

Functioning similar to her teleportation, Raven can create portals through space with a wave of her hand.

Limitations

Raven’s teleportation is described multiple times as one of her most draining abilities, with several instances of her appearing very worn out after having to teleport multiple times in a short timeframe. She also can’t teleport too many people all at once.

Illusions

Raven can create extremely detailed illusions, which seem to be able to fool all five senses. She often supplements them with her emotion manipulating powers in order to intensify the feelings she wishes to cause.

Telekinesis

It’s used less frequently than you might think, but Raven has telekinesis, which she can apply offensively. Her powers are potent enough to lift entire buildings.

Precognition

Raven possesses a precognitive ability, typically manifesting in the form of premonitions. As you’d expect, this means she can see future events, from something as close as an upcoming battle in the same issue to as far as an outright apocalypse. That said, Raven cannot control these visions, they come to her randomly, and they’ve only happened sparingly throughout her history, so they’re not something she can entirely rely on.

Chronokinesis

While Raven is much more a magician than a time manipulator, due to being raised in a limbo post-Flashpoint, she is specially attuned to the time-stream, and is capable of manipulating its energies for a limited form of time travel. She’s also shown the power to stop time completely, whether for select people or doing so more broadly.

Time Stopping

Time Travel

Matter Manipulation

While she usually merely threatens to do so, Raven seems capable of altering matter on an atomic scale, transmuting objects entirely. This is most pronounced as Dark Raven, where both her and her father have been shown to transmute things into stone on a massive scale.

Smoke Manipulation

As stated above, Raven’s teleporting usually produces smoke as a byproduct, but Raven can create smoke at will as well, in both small and large quantities.

Cold Manipulation

Raven can produce a chill to lower the temperatures of others.

Sealing

Raven can seal away others and close holes in reality.

Empowerment

While more commonly done as her dark self, Raven has shown the ability to empower others and lend them her strength for periods of time.

Phasing

The corporeality of Raven’s Soul-Self somewhat varies, but Raven has displayed the power to phase her body through attacks without it.

Sin Powers

Raven represents the sin of Pride, the original sin from which all others spawn, meaning Raven can utilize the powers of the Seven Deadly Sins, and can inflict others with these sins to manipulate them. She doesn’t do this commonly though, as any use of these powers leaves her sick and vomiting for a lengthy period of time.

It’s not made entirely clear in the comics themselves, but given Raven can utilize the power of the sin of Greed, which originates from Pride, and as Dark Raven she nearly granted the power of the Seven Deadly Sins to the other Titans, it’s possible Raven can use the powers of all Seven Deadly Sins in the same manner as her brothers if she wishes. The following are how these powers have been used by Raven’s siblings.

Miscellaneous

Hax Resistances & Vulnerabilities

Mind Manipulation

Soul Manipulation / Possession

Note that any of her Soul-Self’s feats of resilience would apply as a showing of hax resistance, due to being, yknow, her soul, alongside any other notable stuff listed above.

Matter Manipulation

Biological Manipulation

Power Nullification / Removal

Energy Absorption

Existence Erasure

BFR

Intense Light

Suffocation

Sealing

Time Manipulation

Feats

Overall

  • Assembled the New Teen Titans

  • Founded the Titans Academy

  • Repelled Trigon’s invasion of Earth multiple times

  • As Dark Raven, successfully helped take over the world

  • Aided Trigon in his conquest of the Underrealms

  • Defeated her own dark counterpart

  • Defeated Donna Troy, Mongul, Neron

  • Banished Brother Blood to hell

  • Tethered the Riders of the Apocalypse to herself

  • As the Unkindness, destroyed all of creation

Strength

Base

Dark Raven

Golden Raven 

Trigon

Other

Speed

Base

Dark Raven

Golden Raven

Other

Durability

Base

Stamina-wise, she’s:

Dark Raven

Trigon

Other

Scaling

Note that, as Raven has overpowered and defeated her dark self in combat, and has matched her demonic half multiple times, any feats or scaling linked to Dark Raven should also apply to Raven as she is normally

For reference, Mordru is a lord of Chaos who has:

Weaknesses


Summary

Phoenix


Advantages:

  • Can match Raven in power and speed

  • The Phoenix’s fire is capable of harming intangible targets and souls, and thus could likely affect Raven’s Soul Self. The Soul Self has also shown to be vulnerable to Superboy’s tactile telekinesis, so Jean’s TK could likely affect it as well. It is possible that this would also apply to Jean’s other abilities.

  • Mental defenses are likely enough to withstand Raven’s empathic powers and mental manipulation

  • Energy absorption abilities could drain Raven’s magic and potentially weaken her Soul Self. Could also potentially reabsorb energy that Raven absorbs from her.

  • Regeneration is greater than Raven’s, and renders the majority of Raven’s physical attacks moot, since the Phoenix Force could build her a new body or transfer her consciousness elsewhere

  • Could likely escape to the White Hot Room in the event that she is pressured or BFR’d; the Phoenix has also shown to be capable of breaking free of dimensional BFR while Maya Lopez was the host

  • Time manipulation abilities as the White Phoenix have fewer drawbacks than Raven’s chronokinesis

  • Capable of countering Raven’s transmutation with her own, by transmuting her own body back to normal or manipulating her own atomic structure

  • Capable of resisting Raven’s possession

  • Heightened emotions as the Phoenix could cause Raven pain

  • Generally has less of an issue with stamina than Raven does

  • More skilled close-quarters fighter

  • GOATed cartoon adaptation

  • Is a redhead

Disadvantages:

  • Considering Raven’s mental defenses, likely would not easily be able to affect her with telepathy

  • Can neither resist nor regenerate from soul manipulation or destruction

  • The majority of her physical attacks are rendered useless by the fact that Raven can survive as just a soul

  • Her ability to affect souls is much less advanced than Raven’s, and she has far fewer showings of doing so, on top of never having dealt with an opponent that requires soul destruction to defeat

  • Though she can likely damage Raven’s Soul Self with her fire and telekinesis, Raven’s ability to survive and regenerate from her soul being shattered suggests that simply damaging it is not enough to put her down.

  • Vulnerable to having her energy removed or absorbed, which is something that Raven is capable of doing; her own energy absorption, while useful, would not be as debilitating for Raven as Raven’s would be for her

  • Likely could not permanently shift the fight to the White Hot Room, due to the difficulty of doing so + the fact that Raven could just teleport out

  • Uses teleportation much less frequently than Raven, and as such has much less experience doing so in combat

  • Attempting to possess Raven would be ineffective at best, and at worst would potentially lead to the Phoenix becoming tethered to Raven

  • Historically has had difficulty affecting larger, darker, or more complicated minds, some of which Raven’s demonic physiology is analogous to, most notably Illyana

  • Marvel’s tendency to repeat the same plot beats over and over again

  • Terrible romance subplots

  • Shitty live action adaptation

Raven


Advantages:

  • Can match Jean in power and speed

  • Mental defenses could likely repel Jean’s mind control, illusions, and memory manipulation

  • Soul destruction and manipulation is something that the Phoenix and Jean have little to no defense against, is far more advanced than the Phoenix’s own soul manipulation, and is beyond what the Phoenix has shown to quickly regenerate from

  • Ability to survive as a soul without her body nullifies the majority of Jean’s physical attacks, including her transmutation, matter manipulation, biological manipulation, and life draining. Ability to survive and regenerate damage to her soul also makes her difficult to put down, even in the event that the Phoenix damages it.

  • Ability to absorb energy with her Soul Self means that she could likely drain the Phoenix’s power, and her showings as the Unkindness + ability to BFR energy into her personal dimension prove that she could handle the Phoenix’s energy without being overtaxed. Could also potentially reabsorb any energy stolen from her, and would be less debilitated by energy absorption than Jean would be. Though it is a strong boon for both, energy absorption is more beneficial for Raven than for Jean.

  • Dimensional teleportation would prevent her from being trapped in the White Hot Room, in addition to the fact that transporting an opponent there is difficult for Jean to begin with

  • Capable of resisting the Phoenix’s possession, and potentially even tethering the Phoenix Force to herself if it attempts to possess her

  • Has more showings of stopping and manipulating time than Phoenix, and has done so in a fight; her ability to teleport to realms outside of time means that she could avoid being affected by White Phoenix’s alterations to the timeline

  • Superior utility and experience when it comes to teleportation

  • Ability to expel pain from her body counters Jean’s ability to induce artificial pain

  • Capable of resisting Phoenix’s power stealing

  • Demonic mind and energy could pose a danger to Jean’s telepathy, similar to Illyana

  • GOATed cartoon adaptation

  • Is a goth girl

Disadvantages:

  • Has more prevalent stamina issues than Jean does

  • The Phoenix’s fire and telekinesis (and potentially other abilities as well) could likely affect her Soul Self, even in spite of its intangibility

  • Empathic powers, mind manipulation, and possession are likely to be largely ineffective against the Phoenix’s mental defenses

  • Physical attacks that do not target the mind or soul would be ineffective at overcoming the Phoenix’s regeneration

  • Would likely not be able to permanently BFR Phoenix into her Soul Self or elsewhere, due to the Phoenix’s ability to break out or escape to the White Hot Room

  • Transmutation probably could not permanently affect Jean, since the Phoenix could likely just transmute her body back to normal

  • Chronokinesis has more drawbacks than White Phoenix’s ability to alter the timeline

  • Commonly struggles to deal with intense emotions from her opponents, and can feel pain from them; notable against the Phoenix, which heightens the emotions of its host

  • Less skilled close-quarters fighter

  • DC’s tendency to repeat the same plot beats over and over again

  • Terrible romance subplots

  • Shitty live action adaptation

Verdict

Stats

The most “fun” part of any VS debate, let’s start by going over the stats of both characters.

In her “base” state without the Phoenix, Jean is capable of taking the shockwave from Hulk’s thunderclap, as well as hits to the head from Cyclops’ Optic Blast when it is out of control. While Hulk was likely not going all out, even at his weakest the Savage Hulk should be stronger than Grey Hulk, who shattered an asteroid twice as large as Earth. This is consistent with Cyclops, whose Optic Blasts are stated to be able to split a small planet in half. Jean’s psionic abilities even in base are stated to make her the most powerful of the founding X-Men, above Cyclops, so this would scale to her power as well, making her roughly large planet level without unnecessary highballing.

As shown by Teen Jean, she can also absorb psionic energy from her surroundings to make herself stronger. This is somewhat circumstantial and depends on the strength of the person she’s fighting, but at max has been shown to make her powerful enough to harm Galactus.

Speed-wise, she should be easily superior to lesser X-Men like Beast, who can react in nanoseconds, and Wolverine, who can deflect Cyclops’ light-speed Optic Blasts. Jean herself has proven capable of reacting to Cyclops’ beams in order to steer their trajectory with psychic “bumpers”, so her reactions should be more than capable of reaching FTL speeds.

Of course, we aren’t here for base Jean, we’re here to talk about the Phoenix, who is undoubtedly one of the most powerful characters in all of Marvel. With the Phoenix Force, Jean can obliterate planets, solar systems, and galaxies. Her Phoenix avatar can grow large enough to expand across the universe, and even while inexperienced, the Phoenix could contain the power of the M’kraan Crystal, which in that particular storyline was depicted as a universe-ending threat.

Universe level power is just scratching the surface, however, as the Phoenix has also matched Galactus on multiple occasions, and the more powerful Dark Phoenix is said to exceed him outright. This is relevant because in his fight against the Other and the Scrier, Galactus nearly wiped out the entire Marvel multiverse, with the destruction even potentially reaching Oblivion. Oblivion himself believed that the scope of the battle would be capable of exceeding the destruction caused by the Chaos War, in which Amatsu-Mikaboshi (the Chaos King) wiped out 98.76% of the Marvel multiverse. Contextually speaking, this was likely referring to Marvel’s cosmology as a whole, since the Chaos King was hyped up as a threat comparable to Multi-Eternity.

So how big is Marvel’s cosmology really? How is it structured?

For starters, the main multiverse consists of an infinite number of universes, as well as an infinite number of timelines which branch off from every moment since the universe began. It has also been established that the Marvel multiverse includes an infinite number of higher-dimensional planes. This “omniverse” is contained within the Superflow, an informational space which demarcates each universe and connects all living things. Infinitely beyond the Superflow are realms such as Overspace and Oblivion, which are occupied by abstract beings such as the Living Tribunal, the In-Betweener, and… well, Oblivion. Infinitely beyond that, at the very edge of known existence is the Far Shore, beyond which is a white void known as the Mystery (also known as the Above Place and the White Hot Room).

Skyfather-tier characters whom the Phoenix compares to, such as Galactus and Scarlet Witch, are capable of threatening vast portions of this cosmology, if not all of it. Phoenix herself is capable of affecting the White Hot Room to an extent (though her control over it isn’t absolute), and is noted multiple times to be the fire that will one day consume all of “creation” in the distant future, at the end of all things. There are multiple terms that you could use to refer to such a thing – hyperversal, omniversal, outerversal, boundless. All are arbitrary and it doesn’t really matter what you want to call it; simply describing the extent of the cosmology will suffice for the purposes of this blog.

As an aside, though the White Phoenix of the Crown gets a lot of hype in VS circles, it is actually largely featless, beyond having a casual universal feat which is nothing new for the Phoenix. Based on how it works and its significance in Jean’s story, it is likely that it is more powerful than the Phoenix or Dark Phoenix at minimum, but it is impossible to determine by how much, or assign any sort of arbitrary value to it beyond what the Phoenix has already shown.

Speed-wise things are much simpler. The Phoenix has shown to be capable of waging battles across infinite distance and projecting the consciousness of others to infinity. She is mentally comparable to Charles Xavier, whose astral projection could move at speeds too fast to measure, and she scales to Odin, who was able to react to Mjolnir immediately after it crossed an immeasurable distance. As such, she is comfortably and consistently immeasurable in speed.

Moving on to Raven, it should come as no surprise that her most impressive and consistent scaling comes from her father, Trigon, whom she has defeated multiple times while at the peak of her power. Though she originally channeled Azar’s soul and the Spirits of Azarath to destroy Trigon, Raven has since shown to be capable of overcoming Azar and Phantasm (the aggregate of the Azarathian Spirits) herself, proving that she can match their level of power on her own. When used by Starfire, Raven’s pure soul alone was also able to defeat Trigon and destroy his soul/energy, which Azar and the Souls of Azarath were explicitly unable to do.

Moreover, Raven can draw upon the souls’ power anyway via the Rings of Azar, and has also defeated Trigon after absorbing the souls of her sisters. She has also withstood attacks from him on multiple occasions, and scales beyond her mother Arella, who has defended against his attacks and sealed him away. Raven has also easily overpowered other high-tier DC characters such as Neron, who scaling-wise is on a similar level to Trigon.

With all of that established, Trigon is powerful enough that he has been directly compared to the Spectre by the Monitor, has killed Doctor Fate (and potentially Nabu as well) in an alternate timeline, and is beyond his son Belial, who has empowered the likes of Merlin. Neron, who is weaker than Raven, has likewise shown to be capable of overpowering Doctor Fate and Jim Corrigan’s Spectre, as well as purportedly take hits from really high-tier DC characters such as Lucifer Morningstar. Belial also has showings that may indicate comparability to Lucifer, though it is frequently debated whether it was the same Lucifer or not.

These are all characters capable of threatening most if not all of DC’s cosmology. How impressive is that, you ask?

Well, just take a look at DC’s handy dandy multiverse map. At the center of it all is the Orrery of Worlds, which refers to DC’s main multiverse. This includes an infinite number of universes, as well as timelines, all of which is contained within the Bleed, an interdimensional space which also contains infinite higher-dimensional planes. Multiple degrees of transcendence beyond the Bleed are dimensions such as the Speed Force, as well as the Sphere of Gods, in which places like Apokolips, Heaven, Hell, etc. are located. Transcending all of that is the Source Wall at the very edge of existence, and transcending that is the Source, a white void that exists beyond everything that is known.

In terms of characters being able to threaten this cosmology, the Spectre was said to be capable of annihilating all of creation in a battle against the Phantom Stranger, and can freeze over all of Hell, which is cosmologically comparable to Heaven. Neron is capable of controlling all of Hell and dictating its rules. Merlin is capable of draining magic from high-tier magic users like Doctor Fate and Zatanna. Fate is capable of destroying the entire Sphere of Gods, albeit with help from other Lords of Order. Zatanna at her peak can defend against threats like Pralaya, who is capable of consuming the entirety of DC’s creation. All of these characters should also be comparable (if not superior) to the likes of Barry Allen and Wally West, who were capable of threatening the multiverse with their race against each other, and generating so much energy that they were mistaken for the Source by the Highfather.

These are the types of characters whom Trigon – and by extension Raven at her peak – compares to. If you take the comparisons between Belial/Neron and Lucifer Morningstar at face value, it is also worth mentioning that the Morningstar is capable of shaping all of creation with his divine will. Once again, the exact terminology doesn’t matter much for establishing Raven’s power, the important part is just the scale of the cosmology.

Speed-wise, Raven at her peak should be comparable to the likes of Doctor Fate, whose helmet was able to travel through meta-space at the immeasurable “velocity of god”. This is consistent with Pre-Crisis Superman’s speed exceeding infinity, and speedsters like Wally reaching immeasurable trans-time velocities, even while refusing to tap into the Speed Force (Trigon has proven fast enough to kill the Flash before).

Of note, Raven has fought and overpowered her dark self with her normal powers, and has matched her demonic self multiple times, so all of her scaling applies to her in a broad sense, and not solely to any specific form.

…So that was a lot. If you read all that and still can’t tell how they compare to each other, I don’t blame you. Let’s break it down a bit.

Jean in her base form doesn’t really stand a chance against Raven. Even scaling her more generously to the Hulk’s top strength, she would still fall short in terms of baseline power. Her psionic energy absorption was able to compensate for the strength gap between her and Galactus, but Galactus wasn’t attacking or even paying attention to her, which is what gave her the opportunity to absorb his energy in the first place. In a one-on-one fight where Raven is trying to kill her, base Jean wouldn’t get the opportunity to absorb any psionic energy before losing.

Moving on to what’s most important, let’s now talk about how Raven stacks up against the Phoenix. The answer is “quite well”.

Speed-wise, the two are both operating in a tier of power where any character worth their salt is immeasurably fast. As such, neither will be blitzing the other.

Strength-wise, though there’s certainly plenty of debate to be had and semantics to get into, broadly speaking, the extended cosmologies of Marvel and DC are largely similar in size and scope. Both have infinite universes, infinite timelines, infinite higher dimensions, and several realms of existence that infinitely transcend even that. It’s pretty easy to draw parallels between the two structure-wise as well, for instance:

The Superflow and the multiverse contained within = The Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds

Overspace, Oblivion, etc. = The Sphere of Gods and other realms beyond the Bleed

The Far Shore = The Source Wall

The Mystery = The Source

This is, of course, a significant generalization, but given that both series have a lot of give-and-take, different interpretations, and contradictory statements, a broad and roughly 1-to-1 comparison is probably the fairest way to approach things, especially for the purposes of a blog like this, where it would not be practical or feasible to go through literally everything for a couple of decades-spanning franchises that have each released hundreds of thousands of comics.

With all that established, similar to speed, neither Jean nor Raven are likely to be capable of overpowering the other. Going with the premise that the two cosmologies are equal, Jean’s ability to consume Marvel’s creation and match Galactus would be matched by Raven’s ability to overpower Trigon and Neron, who pose a similar threat to DC’s creation. Both characters are in a similar omniversal/outerversal/whateverversal weight class, and as such are essentially even in strength. As such, the fight will largely come down to other factors beyond stats.

Abilities

Right off the bat, their direct feats clearly show that the Phoenix likely has greater range and raw destructive power. The Phoenix’s avatar has grown across solar systems and destroyed stars, while Raven has never shown such destructive range. Comparing her to Trigon, who has destroyed planets and threatened to shift the universe, could help even things out, but even then, White Phoenix has altered reality and held a universe in her hands. That said, given both can take the fight to different dimensions, and both are likely roughly similar in pure power, that’s not the most significant advantage in the world. Raven’s ability to teleport across dimensions means she always has an option to avoid getting hit, and she frequently uses teleportation in combat already. On the topic of the Phoenix’s power, while its flames are incredibly hot, Raven’s Soul-Self is immune to Belial’s hellfire, and she’s willing to sheathe herself in its energy as protection. This hellfire was capable of harming even Superboy, with Kryptonians having withstood the heat of stars and above before, so Raven should be protected well enough from such effects.

The mention of teleportation raises the additional point that Raven has many more showings of teleportation than Jean, both locally and across dimensions, and uses it much more often for fighting purposes, such as teleporting away from attacks or removing others from the battlefield. Neither is likely to be able to use said dimensional travel abilities to simply banish the other though. Raven has banished the likes of Deathstroke to entirely different universes, but Maya as the Phoenix was capable of coming back from a similar dimensional removal by the Eternals, and returning back to her regular space-time. Even if this were to work, Jean could simply travel to the White Hot Room and place the fight back into her own terms. Likewise, while Jean could hypothetically take Raven to the White Hot Room, taking mortals to such a place is stated to be difficult even for the Phoenix, and it’s not something Jean has personally ever done. Raven herself has freely teleported between the actual Heaven, Hell, and the crossroads to the afterlife, which exist in the Sphere of the Gods, and so could suggest that even if she were taken to the White Hot Room, she could simply teleport out. The White Hot Room exists beyond the Far Shore, which could be cosmologically argued at a different level to the Sphere of the Gods, but the difficulty the Phoenix has in taking mortals there means this is unlikely to come up regardless, and isn’t a reliable win condition. Teleporting Raven across the universe would also be unlikely to help Jean much, as Raven has sensed planets dying from across the universe before, and can always teleport to somewhere like Azarath or the Nexus of All Dimensions to recover.

In terms of their time-manipulation abilities, both can stop time, but Raven has more showings of doing so, including using it in a combat scenario, and hers is suggested to last longer on top of that. At best for Jean, they cancel out, and at worst, Raven has an edge. On the other hand, White Phoenix’s timeline alterations are much more potent than Raven’s chronokinesis, with her having absorbed and altered entire futures, while Raven’s chronokinesis has had limited success and can kill her if she uses it too much. The fact that Raven can manipulate the timestream at all helps though, as it ensures she won’t be totally out-of-her-depth against what Jean can do. Raven has stabilized time vortexes which have threatened the multiverse, and has stretched her Soul-Self across millennia, allowing her to time travel to eras that distant. White Phoenix’s manipulation of reality does not occur instantly, and Raven’s ability to sense danger and detect portals through time should allow her to realize something is off. At that point, Raven could simply teleport to Azarath, Heaven, Hell, or Trigon’s Underrealms, all of which either operate on a different flow of time or exist outside of it entirely, and so would likely operate outside of the Phoenix’s range of abilities. While the Phoenix has absorbed futures into the White Hot Room, they’ve never done so to a location not linked to them in such a way, and the aforementioned realms in DC operate on entirely different rules. The Phoenix has also never done this for a combat scenario, so it’s unlikely to come up in the fight regardless.

Jean obviously has more potent and versatile applications of her telekinesis, capable of affecting massive meteors from a thousand kilometers away and channeling Black Bolt’s voice, while still being precise enough to remove nanites. She uses her telekinesis more frequently than Raven does, giving her an edge in that field. With regards to matter manipulation, both can affect objects on an atomic level, and can transmute objects entirely from one element to another. This would normally be an instant-win against most characters, but both Jean and Raven should be able to counter the other in this category. The Phoenix can resurrect its host from their body being completely destroyed, with Jean herself having stitched her body back together as just mental energy. As she has transmutation of her own and can alter matter on a molecular scale, she should be able to simply transmute herself back to normal were Raven to try such an attack. Raven, meanwhile, doesn’t need her body in the first place to keep fighting, and her Soul-Self has been completely unaffected by matter manipulation before, of course due to not having any physical atoms in the first place. Any damage done to Raven’s physical body ultimately wouldn’t matter too much in the long run. 

Both have sensory abilities and advanced perception, though Raven uses hers much more frequently and as such has many more showings for specific scenarios which would be useful in a fight like this, such as being able to sense danger and sense build-ups of energy. The Phoenix’s cosmic awareness could possibly exceed this, though it’s somewhat vague, and Raven has shown more precision with regards to her extrasensory abilities. As Raven has sensed beings from across dimensions, and has sensed planets dying from interstellar distances, alongside the Phoenix’s naturally intensified emotions, she should have no issue keeping track of Jean. 

Speaking of interstellar distance, Phoenix has the surprisingly simple edge of being able to naturally fly and breathe in space, while Raven in her physical body requires oxygen to breathe and has stated her Soul-Self cannot withstand the vacuum of space for too long. Jean can planet-bust, which would force Raven into space, and would seemingly give Jean an edge. However, Raven’s Legion Flight Ring should allow her physical body to keep going in such a scenario, as it allows her to fly and breathe in space freely. Raven’s physical body shouldn’t matter much to begin with, as said above, as at her peak she can fight and operate as just her purified golden Soul-Self. Her golden self has been shown to freely travel between the Earth and the moon with no ill-effects, and Dark Raven was capable of casting out her Soul-Self across solar systems to Tamaran, indicating that at her peak, Raven’s soul can sustain itself just fine in space. And worst comes to worst, Raven can always vanish into her own pocket dimension, or teleport to Azarath or the Nexus for safety.

Another shared ability between the two is the power to drain the energies of others. Teen Jean has drained the telepathic energies of Galactus and the Phoenix Force itself, while Raven has sapped the strength of Trigon and drained Supergirl’s energy. This at first may seem like it cancels out yet again, but it’s worth looking at the finer details. The Phoenix is reliant on a constant supply of energy to fuel itself, and has been consistently affected by energy draining in the past. While Rachel’s Phoenix was capable of countering Necrom’s attempts to drain it, this was only because Necrom was draining so much energy he overloaded and exploded. Necrom was still capable of siphoning such energy in the first place, and characters like Galactus have nearly killed the Phoenix by draining her power. In comparison, while Raven has had her energy drained multiple times, in all cases she’s still been able to operate with lowered stamina and magic, and has shown to still be capable of using her Soul-Self in such a state, always managing to recover and return to normal. Jean can do the same to an extent, but the Phoenix would be much more notably debilitated by an attempt to absorb its energy compared to Raven, as it’s more reliant on constantly gaining energy and has been almost killed by such actions in the past.

It’s highly unlikely that what happened to Necrom would happen to Raven if she were to attempt energy absorption as a tactic, as Raven managed to absorb and contain the energies of the Unkindness, a being which went on to destroy all of DC’s creation, and has withstood attacks which disrupted the ‘omniverse’, a level which should be plenty comparable to where the Phoenix operates. Binary was able to absorb the Phoenix’s energy by discharging the excess energy through a portal to another universe, which could be compared to Raven’s ability to contain energy such as that of Sparta’s in her Soul-Self’s personal dimension, and would further suggest Raven could successfully contain the Phoenix’s power. It’s also possible both could draw any absorbed energies back into themselves, as Jean has drained the Phoenix Force and Raven has drained Trigon, both of whom serve as the source of their respective powers, though this is largely hypothetical. Additionally, Raven has a feat of blocking having her power absorbed even while unconscious, which could be interpreted as a general resistance to energy draining. Were one to go this route, Raven’s advantage in this field would be furthered, as Jean’s energy absorption could be entirely ineffective on Raven and not vice-versa. In any case, while it’s a notable ability for both bird ladies, energy absorption ultimately benefits Raven more on all sides.

In terms of absorption, the Phoenix’s life-absorption is also likely to be ineffective. Raven has no clear feats of resisting such an ability, but as we keep coming back to, Raven doesn’t need her physical body to fight in the first place, and on Jean’s end, such life-force draining has never been shown to be capable of affecting souls. It would only impede Raven for so long.

Both Raven and Jean share the core ability of being able to mentally affect others, with many showings and uses of it on both sides. In this regard, they match each other’s versatility fairly well. Applications such as illusions, mind control, city-wide memory altering, the ability to separate spirits from their host, and inducing sleep all have instances of being shown for both characters. Raven has more showings of precisely controlling specific emotions, but this is a fairly minor point, and similarly, both can counter the other reading their mind. Jean has more explicit showings of doing so, but Raven’s psionic shields can block others from sensing her, and she’s been mentioned to have resisted mental probing before. 

They match each other fairly well in terms of raw utility, but how about power? Well, comparing something as esoteric as mental-manipulation in terms of potency is always a little subjective, but they should be fairly well matched in this category too. Both scale to some of the strongest psionic characters in their universes, Jean having matched omega-level telepath Professor X, and Raven having held out against the HIVE Queen, a being engineered by Brainiac to be the strongest psionic on Earth who has brainwashed Superman himself before. You might point to Raven ultimately succumbing to the HIVE Queen’s control and it rapidly draining her stamina, but keep in mind, Raven was protecting not only herself, but five other people as well, alongside her naturally having to constantly struggle against Trigon. Raven directly compared the HIVE Queen’s psionic power to Trigon, and on her own, Raven has resisted Trigon and her demonic-self plenty of times. When purified, she’s free from his influence entirely. And even then, Raven was capable of holding out against the HIVE Queen and protecting other people for the entire issue, with her chaos energies helping to break the HIVE Queen’s control even after she finally succumbed. All that should be more than enough to suggest Raven can compare to some of the strongest psychics in her world. 

In terms of range, Jean can compare to Umar, who’s controlled people from across countless dimensions, and she’s personally battled Xavier across infinite planes of existence. Impressive, no doubt, but Trigon’s powers have tried to influence Raven from his home universe and Azarath, which exists “many dimensions” away from Earth, with Azarath being stated to exist between all dimensions and outside of time. In the New 52, Trigon’s realm is suggested to be tied to Neron’s Hell itself, which exists in the Sphere of the Gods. Either way you look at it, such range isn’t outside of Raven’s ballpark. 

So what about sheer numbers? Professor X and other high-tier telepaths in Marvel like Emma Frost have been shown many times to be capable of scanning and affecting every mind on Earth at the same time. The HIVE Queen, meanwhile, as a being designed to be the strongest psionic on Earth, should be at least comparable to Martian Manhunter, who has scanned the planet multiple times, and at one point even sensed all life across the entire galaxy. Additional support for this would be the Wyld, who was capable of overcoming Miss Martian in a mental battle at only three-quarters of his full power, despite needing to be at maximum strength to take Raven’s Soul-Self. While Miss Martian isn’t quite as strong as her uncle, it does further suggest the strength of Raven’s telepathy. And hell, Raven has scanned minds across the planet just on her own. Even going a step further in terms of just the characters they’ve affected, Martian Manhunter has affected the Spectre with his powers, a being who can resist the Anti-Life Equation, which is sometimes suggested to be an aspect of the Source itself. Your mileage may vary on that last part, but all that should prove Raven can at the very least hold up against what Jean can dish out. 

With all that established, it’s reasonable to say neither is going to be able to significantly affect each other with their mental abilities. An interesting point is how both are similar to beings which the other have struggled to affect with their powers in-story. Raven’s demonic physiology and link to Trigon is notably comparable to Illyana’s dimension of semi-demonic energy, which Emma Frost said would be difficult for Jean to access. Something similar has happened on Raven’s end, when Doctor Psycho tried to access her mind, only to be knocked unconscious by her demonic-link. Likewise, the Phoenix is stated to inflame and intensify the emotions of its host, with intense emotions being a common weakness of Raven’s which can leave her knocked out cold at worst. That said, while a noteworthy comparison, neither of these weaknesses are likely to have a major effect. Illyana’s demonic energy is vague and ill-clarified, with Emma making the statement in reference to Marvel Girl and not the Phoenix, which is itself a complex mind. The Phoenix has imprinted on Illyana like all its hosts, so this reasonably wouldn’t apply at that stage. Raven, meanwhile, has overcome her weakness to intense emotions over her history, having successfully handled the pain of hundreds of people at the same time and being capable of sensing people across the planet having their emotions intensified “a thousand-fold”. 

Speaking of pain, Jean’s ability to induce artificial pain probably won’t be too helpful either. While Raven has been affected by artificial pain before, this was very early on into her history, before she had control of her own emotions, and her healing works on the basis of taking pain into her body and expelling it out of herself. Healing is one of Raven’s most commonly used abilities, and, as said above, Raven has expelled the combined pain of hundreds of people out of her body before. This is somewhat similar to how she overcame Phobia’s induced fear, controlling her own emotions with her powers to make herself feel calm even as her pain was intensified. Raven should simply be able to expel any artificial pain out of her body.

As a more minor point, the Phoenix’s power-stealing is also unlikely to be effective. Not only was this only done by an alternate timeline version of Jean, whose powers are stronger than her main self, but Raven has resisted having her powers stolen or messed with before, even while unconscious. Her Soul-Self was also immune to the Disruptor’s powers, which are designed to disable the abilities of a hero, so should Raven’s physical body be destroyed, her Soul-Self should be unaffected by it regardless.

And really, that’s the crux of this battle: their souls. Both have very powerful regenerative abilities that make attacks to their physical body ultimately irrelevant in the long-run. Jean has stitched her body back together from just mental energy, and the Phoenix Force itself is capable of sustaining its host against any form of physical damage with ease. Especially considering that the Phoenix’s telekinesis works on an atomic level, simply destroying Jean’s body isn’t going to do much. While Raven can’t simply create a new body in the same way, she doesn’t need to. At her peak, Raven’s purified, good Soul-Self is capable of acting on its own and utilizing all of Raven’s powers without a body. It’s in this state she defeated and destroyed Trigon’s soul, proving she’s not any weaker either. Raven primarily needs her physical brain in order to control the demonic part of her Soul-Self, which can rebel against her if she loses control, but the good part of Raven’s soul has been shown to be able to defeat her demonic half multiple times and plot against her, and golden Raven is entirely free of such corruption. This wouldn’t help Jean either way, as Dark Raven is just as capable a fighter as her pure-self.

Both of their abilities to fight after their body has been destroyed renders a notable portion of their offensive options ultimately useless. Raven’s transmutation and standard energy projection could simply be undone by Jean’s telekinesis, and Jean’s own matter and biological manipulation will have no effect on a soul which doesn’t have a physical body in the first place. It comes down to who has the better options for destroying the other on not just a physical level, but a spiritual one, and it’s here Raven has the clearest edge. Raven’s soul manipulation and spiritual resilience is overall far more advanced than Jean’s and the Phoenix’s. The Phoenix’s fire has affected otherwise intangible souls before, and Raven’s Soul-Self has been affected by Superboy’s telekinesis, giving Jean two primary options for dealing with Raven’s soul with her flames and telekinesis, which would also prevent Raven from simply phasing through everything Jean uses. However, Raven as her Soul-Self has proven time and time again that simply attacking it isn’t enough to take it down. Her Soul-Self has many feats of being cut in half, split into its component parts, or just completely exploded into pieces, only for Raven to piece it back together good as new in short time. Jean, meanwhile, has never truly had to deal with an attack on her soul, and has never shown the ability to repair it from such extensive damage. 

That alone is a significant disadvantage in a battle where damage to the soul is the primary way for either to win, but Raven’s offensive options as her soul are also far more extensive than Jean’s. Jean can sustain herself as just a soul, but she seems to lose most of her offensive abilities, and rarely has had to fight in such a state. On Raven’s end though, fighting as her soul is her primary powerset. Her Soul-Self has access to all of her regular abilities and more, including energy projection which can harm intangible beings, and she has far more experience with fights that involve spiritual combat, having fought for three days straight in a battle on the astral plane and dealt with numerous ghosts or spiritual entities, including ones as powerful as Trigon himself. Raven’s Soul-Self has stabbed and affected the souls of others even while those souls are still inside someone’s body, proving Jean’s body doesn’t need to be totally destroyed for Raven to attack her soul, and Raven has manipulated and shaped numerous souls at once, possibly even an entire universe of them at her highest. Even Raven’s standard empathic abilities have been described as her soul entering the soul of the person she's affecting. The Phoenix has no way to really recover from an attack on its soul in a battle like this, which constitutes the primary way Raven fights, while Raven’s soul can recover quickly from any damage the Phoenix’s flames or telekinesis inflict. 

Raven’s soul manipulation and resistance is much more extensive than the Phoenix’s, having numerous feats of resisting having her soul manipulated even while unconscious, and having dealt with Trigon trying to manipulate her soul, the same Trigon who’s siphoned his entire universe of souls before while not even at his peak. Similarly, Raven’s purified self could destroy Trigon’s soul when not even the combined spirits of Azarath, constituting the entire combined knowledge of a society dedicated to spiritual prowess, could do so. Those same spirits were strong enough to completely obliterate Trigon’s body in the first place, but were unable to do the same to his soul, proving Raven can handle and has experience against even extremely powerful and resilient souls. Jean being able to sustain herself as psychic energy is useful, but Raven’s defeat of Trigon counters that too, as he’s been described as pure energy at that point as well, which the souls of Azarath claimed could not be destroyed at all. 

Jean has much less experience astrally projecting than Raven, and the damage she sustains reflects on her body. The Phoenix Force itself has claimed that the human soul is beyond its understanding, and implies it cannot simply repair it in the same way as a physical body. The Phoenix has eventually managed to resurrect from being erased from existence, but this can take years, and wouldn’t be combat applicable. Raven’s pure and golden Soul-Self, meanwhile, has lasted for years in real life and participated in numerous battles and stories, even ascending to a higher plane of existence. Her Soul-Self has lasted for weeks even while stuck on its own in an entirely separate plane of reality as both its good and dark halves, proving her soul can sustain itself without a body with no issue. An extensive attack on the Phoenix’s soul should put them down and win the fight, and Raven has everything she needs to do just that.

On the note of souls, while both have feats of resisting/blocking possession, the Phoenix’s fire blocking Jean’s spirit and Raven having blocked Jericho and and overcome Trigon, Jean is still at a disadvantage in this area. Were the Phoenix to try separating from Jean and possessing Raven as an offensive option, it would risk Raven simply forcibly tethering the Phoenix to herself. Raven has done this to beings as strong as the Riders of the Apocalypse/the Unkindness, which, as stated above, are on the level of DC’s entire omniverse. That proves Raven’s tethering is more than potent enough to affect the Phoenix Force, and it’s a tactic she’s gone for in-character. The Phoenix Force has been affected by similar abilities in-story, such as Necrom sealing it inside a corpse, with no proven feats of resistance. As Raven can resist Trigon’s corruption, which is comparable to the Phoenix’s, she would have no issue forcing the Phoenix Force into herself and gaining all its power with few of the drawbacks. This would leave Jean almost entirely depowered and reverted back to essentially her standard abilities, against a Raven who still has her full power alongside the power of the Phoenix Force. Needless to say, that’s not a position she wants to be in, and Raven’s possession in comparison doesn’t carry nearly as high a risk. The Phoenix Force has on multiple occasions been separated from the body of its host after the host is defeated, or even after simply taking a strong enough hit, which could possibly allow Raven to tether the Phoenix without Jean going for such a tactic. 

The clearest way to think of this is that this is a battle which requires the winner to destroy the other’s soul to win completely, and as both have options for fighting beyond their bodies being destroyed, it forces both combatants into a scenario revolving around a spiritual combat. All their other potential wincons, such as energy absorption or time manipulation, either cancel out, can be completely countered, or favor Raven. This is a scenario Jean and the Phoenix have simply never had to deal with and have no experience against, with their showings against souls being far more limited and less potent, and Jean’s own soul having no showings to suggest it could hold up against an attack on the soul. Meanwhile, spiritual combat is Raven’s bread-and-butter. It’s something she does in almost every single battle she’s in, she has far more showings of affecting powerful and resilient souls, her soul is more versatile and has access to a much wider range of abilities than Jean’s, and her soul has quickly repaired itself from damage as extensive being completely shattered without much issue. Jean needs to completely destroy Raven’s soul in a scenario she has basically no experience with, while Raven needs to deal much less damage to Jean’s soul in order to win, in a form of combat she deals with in almost every single fight that she has a wider range of options to complete with. When put that way, it becomes clear Raven has the better options to put Jean down and win.

Tertiary Factors

In comparison to the last two sections, there’s a lot less to go over here. One pretty clear edge the Phoenix has is Jean’s ability to download skills and knowledge into herself. Jean has used this to download the martial arts skills of Misty Knight and Colleen Wing, two extremely knowledgeable and expert fighters. Raven, in comparison, has no explicit formal martial arts training, and generally engages in physical confrontations less than Jean, so Jean should take a clean advantage in skill. That said, it’s not like Raven is totally out-of-her-depth in that field. Raven’s defeated her demon brother Envy in a purely physical confrontation, and while serving under Trigon in the New 52, she conquered entire worlds and went through many physical battles with her Ebon-Sword. Raven’s physicality has been compared to Donna Troy before, who should be much stronger than the Thing, one of the more powerful characters Jean has defeated in hand-to-hand, so Raven should be more than capable of holding her own in a battle of fists. Of course, a fight like this wouldn’t come down to physicality regardless, so this is all ultimately a minor point.

In terms of experience, Raven’s aforementioned servitude under Trigon should outdo Jean in terms of sheer length. Trigon’s realm exists outside of the normal flow of time, and Raven has described it as having spent “an eternity” there, the entire time engaging in battle and planning conquests. Jean has the experience of both her adult and time-displaced selves, but it’s unlikely it could compare to Raven’s time as a warlord, and both have experience teaching others or serving as leaders of their respective teams. Raven can also possibly call upon Azar for guidance with her rings, granting her additional knowledge. With all that in mind, the Phoenix Force itself obviously outdoes both, having existed and operated since the beginning of time, constituting billions of years of experience. That’s older than Azar and even Trigon, so should the Phoenix Force be the dominant personality of Jean’s body, she would greatly exceed Raven in terms of general experience. Once more though, this is unlikely to matter, as the Phoenix still hasn’t displayed any experience against Raven’s soul-manipulating powerset, which is what’s most important for this battle.

Beyond that, there’s little else to cover in this category. Both have some solid displays of intellect and planning, alongside formal training of their powers, Raven having spent her life training her empathic abilities under Azar and Jean having been trained as an X-Man by Professor X, alongside her time-displaced self having some tutelage under Emma Frost and Psylocke. Both the X-Men and Titans have been active for years and undergo regular training sessions. Raven does tend to struggle more with stamina, but she’s also fought for three days straight without issue, as has Jean, so neither is going to be able to simply outlast the other at their respective peaks. One could debate specific aspects, such as Jean potentially being more skilled through comparison to Professor X, but with mental abilities like this, it’s difficult to make an exact judgment, and the fact that both have formal training and are generally pretty smart means neither is reasonably going to have a noteworthy edge over the other. Especially in comparison to the clash of their abilities, this won’t be a major factor regardless.

Conclusion

This blog is looooooooong so I don’t want to keep you too much longer (*proceeds to write a 600-word conclusion anyway*), but in summary, Phoenix and Raven are both powerful enough to contend with characters that can destroy all of creation, which in the case of Marvel and DC probably makes them roughly equivalent with similar leeway. Speed also equals out, with both scaling to characters with immeasurable feats. As such, the fight primarily comes down to abilities, in which things are very blow-for-blow, but Raven ultimately edges out.

Neither are going to be affecting each other with their mental attacks, at least not easily enough that it would be a win condition in most circumstances. Most of their attempts to harm each other physically will amount to nothing, given Jean’s regeneration and Raven’s ability to survive without her physical body. Both of them have a wide variety of counters to the other’s kit, to the point where they largely cancel out in most regards – both can counter transmutation, both have ways of escaping the other’s BFR, Raven can resist Jean’s power stealing and negate her pain manipulation, Jean as the Phoenix can handle Raven’s mind, and Raven can likewise handle Jean’s heightened emotions. Jean has superior hand-to-hand skill, but Raven isn’t out of her depth, and the fight wouldn’t come down to fisticuffs anyway.

Once we start getting a bit more into the nitty gritty of everything, things start to tilt a little bit toward Raven. Both can repel possession, but only Raven can take advantage of this in a way that could end the fight, by tethering the Phoenix Force to herself. Both have similar time manipulation abilities with their own benefits and drawbacks, but although Raven’s chronokinesis is less powerful and has more drawbacks than White Phoenix’s control over the timeline, she also has ways to escape Phoenix’s time shenanigans entirely, such as teleporting to realms outside of time. She also has a longer time stop that she has actually used in combat, and just more frequently in general. Energy absorption also leans toward Raven, since she can still function with her power drained, could arguably resist it outright, and it would be more debilitating for the Phoenix – potentially fatal – in any case.

And then there’s the big one: the fact that Raven has an overwhelming advantage in terms of soul manipulation and astral combat, which is the most surefire way that either of them have for ending the fight. Her soul manipulation is much more varied and powerful than what the Phoenix has shown to be capable of, and she has shown to be able to resist damage to her soul, as well as regenerate in the event that her soul is harmed.

Jean has never had to deal with a situation where she needs to destroy her opponent’s soul in order to win, and as such would be out of her depth against Raven, who has attacked or destroyed souls on plenty of occasions, and whose power set centers almost entirely around soul manipulation. The Phoenix Force can keep Jean alive through nearly any level of physical damage, but the human soul is beyond its capacity to heal. Its own ability to be reborn via the White Hot Room would not include Jean, and takes too long to affect the fight.

In short, the match comes down to “who can most quickly and easily take the other down beyond their ability to keep fighting?”, and considering the similar stats, counters on both sides, and their respective abilities in soul-based combat, that’s almost certainly Raven. To quoth the raven, by the end of this fight, the Phoenix will be nevermore.

Comments

Post a Comment